Pro real estate photographers answer questions about business, pricing, workflow, white balance, lenses and more in this live Q&A with Rob Moroto and Mark Morrow hosted by Ron Pepper.
Ron Pepper
Rob Moroto from Calgary Photos is going to be joining me here to talk about real estate photography.
Rob Moroto
Hey there.
Ron Pepper
Okay. Let's bring on Jeff over here. Hey Jeff.
Jeff
Hi Ron. Hi Rob. How are you guys?
Ron Pepper
Real good. What brings you here?
Jeff
When I saw this on Facebook, I thought I'd jump in and ask a few questions because I love photography. I'm a high school teacher actually in Windsor, Ontario. But I liked doing it part time.
Jeff
I was wondering, how did you start in real estate photography? Rob?
Rob Moroto
That's a great question. Ron, do you want to take this?
Ron Pepper
Go ahead, Rob, why don't you start?
Rob Moroto
All right. Let me tell you about how I got into this. For me, I used to be a marketing director for a real estate developer. I used to help make all the marketing campaigns for multimillion dollar condo buildings.
Then, back in 2007-8, when the real estate marketing in Canada started drop down, I sort of found myself where I didn't actually have a portfolio to market anymore. I decided, well, you know what? I started my own service. Let's get out.
2009, I exited the market there. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. During the time that I was working as a marketing director, I had this guy. His name was John Sharp. He was a fantastic photographer who unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago. But I used to hire him on for all of our show homes and everything.
When he'd come, I'd say, "Okay, John, here's the ad that we're creating. Here's a proof of what the ad is creating. This is what I need. I need a shot that looks like this, is a straight on, it needs to have this, this, and this. It needs to come in here.
He would be like, "Okay, Rob. Here's the camera. Place it wherever you want. I would. I would place it in the room. Look through the viewfinder. I'm like, "Okay, so this works with this." Then he set up all the lights, click, bang. It was done. It was perfect.
After I got rid of myself, I looked at the check and he called me up and he said, "Let's go for a beer." He said, "Look, we're going to go to a launch party." I said, "Launch party? Sure. Right. Of what?" "The Canon 7D." That was released in 2009.
He told me that I should get one. After that, we did a couple of shoots together. Next thing I know my next door neighbor's like, "Hey, Rob. You've got a new camera. I've got a house. Can you shoot it for me?" I said, "Yeah, sure." Then, of course, you shoot that. The realtor looks at it.
Ron Pepper
It's the way we all start out. Isn't it?
"Do you have a camera?"
Jeff
Word of mouth.
Rob Moroto
Yep. Then the realtor looks at it. He's like, "Oh, this is really good. Hey, can you do my next listing?" "Sure." Then it's like, "Hey, I heard from," and it just, word of mouth. It blew up. To the point where I think after a year I was making just as much shooting as I was as a marketing director.
Then, after the second year, I had so much work that I couldn't hold onto the volume. Strangely enough, a family friend said, "Hey, you remember that kid that you went to school with way, way back when?" I said, "Yeah." He was like, "Well, he's 20 now." Here I am in my mid 30's.
I'm thinking to myself, okay, I'm going to hire on 20 year old. Sure. Let's see how this goes. Quite frankly, he's been with me for the last eight years. After that, somebody else came up to me. He's like, "Hey, you know this guy? He's a great guy. You should hire him." Hired him.
Then hire another guy and kept on growing. To the point where now they're all out there shooting and I'm doing stuff like this. Getting my name out there with website links like this. Please follow us.
Jeff
Right. Did you begin with all... Did you do all the editing yourself in the beginning?
Rob Moroto
Yes, because in the beginning there was no outsourcing. It was all in house. Unfortunately, we didn't have Photomatix back then. I had this thing that was called... What was it?
Ron Pepper
Photoshop. Was it Photoshop before layers?
Rob Moroto
No. This was even before. We had... God, what was it called? It was a batching program called Enfuse. It was this thing that you downloaded, you ran it in terminal on Mac. You had to upload all your photos to it. It would take around eight minutes per photo to go from three images to a HDR. It was terrible.
Photoshop wasn't what it is today. My Photoshop skills aren't what they were back then.
Ron Pepper
Did you say your Photoshop skills had gotten less or more?
Rob Moroto
A little bit better. Just a little. But the program's gotten a whole lot better.
Ron Pepper
A lot of times those new tools come out to do work for us, then we don't use the Photoshop muscles as much. I think I used to be much more... I don't know if I was ever an expert. But I knew a lot more in Photoshop. Now there's so many tools to do things for us.
Jeff
Are there other specific ones you use?
Rob Moroto
Honestly, for me, for our workflow, we are predominantly, we use the Adobe Suite. We've got Bridge and Photoshop and Lightroom. Then Photomatix.
Those are the key three that we use. We use Bridge where, Bridge is like using a Finder's window on Mac. I don't know what the equivalent is in the Microsoft world.
Ron Pepper
Explorer.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. File Explorer or something like that. Then, from there, what we would do is we would look at the files and see which ones we want to use. Then we drag those over into Photomatix. Put it into an HDR.
Then we put it into Lightroom, do the editing. Then export from Lightroom. Then there's a couple of steps in between that we might one day share.
Ron Pepper
The plugin is taking a little bit of time because the first thing it does is it calls Lightroom to do the raw conversion. They're getting the best out of each tool that you use. Lightroom has that high end raw processor.
Rob Moroto
The one thing I love about the Photomatix Lightroom plugin is that you can do... If you've got a job where it's a little bit more intense.
For example, if you're doing something for a builder where you have to look at every single image and make sure that they're 100%, then the Lightroom plugin this way is fantastic because you do have that full control.
Otherwise, the other benefit and the main reason that we use Photomatix is because it has the ability to batch processing on the standalone version. That's fantastic.
All we would have to do is go into Bridge, look at all the photos that we're going to do. We attach a preset to it. Write the XML files. Then just drop the folder into Photomatix, press batch, and then it does everything.
If you've got 100 photos in a place, you can be done processing, actual hands on processing, at your computer in around two minutes. Then the rest of it is all automated. You just have to wait for the computer to do everything else.
Quite frankly, with the way that our business works... For example, we'd go to a shoot. We'd go to the door and knock on door and say, "Hello." Do the pleasantries for around five to 10 minutes with the homeowner.
Then we'd go through the home, turn on all lights, make sure everything is nice and put it away. Shoot the place in around half an hour. Then, again, ending pleasantries. Then we walk out.
All in all, you're done in around 40 minutes to an hour, depending on the size of the place. Once we do this, in two or three minutes on the computer, we can then just take the computer, put it onto the driver or the passenger seat of our car, and drive to the next shoot. By the time we're there, it's done.
Ron Pepper
Nice. Yeah. How how do you power the computer?
Rob Moroto
Whenever we go into a place, we bring in a bunch of gear and put it on the floor and say, "Hey, do you mind if I plug this in?" They look at it and they think, "Oh, you're bringing in a lot of gear to get your work done." It's like, "Yes, that's exactly it." Little do they know that...
We do just do that, well, for two reasons. Number one, we don't ever want to keep gear in our car because, if you're at a shoot and stuff gets stolen out of your car, it destroys your day because you can't get that stuff back and reprogram it in time for the next shoot.
Ron Pepper
You could easily have one of those smart thief type people that kind of know what you do, and see what's going to happen, and plan that.
Rob Moroto
Exactly. Oh, and for anybody out there that... We saw one of our friends do this. They thought it'd be a good idea to deco their car saying real estate photographer.
Jeff
Oh, good.
Rob Moroto
Okay. Not a good idea. Right? That car got broken into so many times. He's like, "Screw it. It's not worth the advertising."
Ron Pepper
Business tip. Don't put those decal writing on your car.
Unless it says, "I don't leave anything in here."
Rob Moroto
Even then.
Ron Pepper
Then you get caught carrying it around I guess.
Rob, did you know you can do batch processing within Lightroom now?
Rob Moroto
Oh. From stacks?
Ron Pepper
There's a new Photomatix batch plugin that just takes the stacks, all of the stack, and treats them as a bracket and just runs it.
Rob Moroto
Really? Oh okay. I'm going to have to play with that.
Ron Pepper
Just from what you're saying, I like to use Bridge in a lot of cases because one of the longest processes that's in my life is importing into Lightroom. I'm kind of down with using Bridge as well. However, this is still common. I still use Lightroom because it's just, maybe I'm invested in it.
Rob Moroto
It's so beautiful.
Ron Pepper
I like Capture One as well. But yeah. Anyway. A couple of just different options for you.
Because some of the questions that I get a lot, the answer is there are so many answers. There's so many possibilities in your workflows, and then the stuff that has to do with how you shoot, what you like to do, and how you're working.
Rob Moroto
Of course.
Rob Moroto
We get that question all the time. It's like, "What do you use?" Essentially it's just the Adobe Suite and Photomatix as a general. But then I use Capture One whenever I'm shooting with my Fuji. My Fuji GF and my 50R, which is a medium format. If I'm shooting with that, then yes. Capture One is so much nicer.
Ron Pepper
Are you actually tethering it for real estate?
Rob Moroto
No. This is more for my other commercial stuff that I do.
Ron Pepper
Right. That makes sense. Yeah. That's kind of what the Capture One was really started out for. Right? Was studio, especially like still life, and-
Rob Moroto
Yeah. Definitely different for that. But, for the rest of the stuff we're shooting, mostly Canon. For that stuff, the Adobe stuff works so much better.
Ron Pepper
Wade's in the chat. He says that they're... Oh, they're not allowed to do studio work.
Stick with landscapes and real estate for now. I know we're talking about real estate, but I was thinking about doing some...
I know everybody's doing the porch thing. But I was thinking why not do some, if people are wanting to do it anyway, do some portrait type stuff.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. For real estate photographers out there right now, if you're not shooting because of Covid, but you still want to keep busy, there's a whole ton of things that you can do.
Right now I'm in Calgary. It's not quite the season yet because everything is still brown. There's no green leaves and the grass is all still dead. I don't know how it is in Windsor.
Jeff
More green.
Rob Moroto
More green?
Jeff
Yeah. It's coming along. It was 71 today.
Rob Moroto
Oh geez. It's lovely. But yeah. When you go further South, it does get warmer. I know people in places where it's warmer, people are allowed to go out into some areas as long as they keep the social distancing going. But this is a great time to go out and get just stock shots of areas.
Because you know that realtors are going to be out there saying, "Hey, this home here is in a really cool neighborhood. Do you mind getting some shots of this, this, and this around there?" Usually you're like, "I got another shoot coming up. I don't have the time."
Well, guess what? You have the time right now. Go out there, grab those shots. You're not going to get harassed by people saying, "Why are you shooting this right now?" Because they don't want to talk to you right now. It's a fantastic time to get all these areas shots and your stock photography up. Next time...
Ron Pepper
It's a great idea.
Rob Moroto
Right? Think about this. How many times have you had a listing where the realtor is like, "Hey, there's a school around the corner." You don't want to go there being the creepy guy holding a camera out of a car and taking a shot of a school where there are kids coming out of the front door. Right? They're all closed. Go out there. Shoot the school right now because nobody cares.
Ron Pepper
That's another out of the box idea that, if you didn't see the last time we did this, Rob had outside the box ideas because, like you mentioned in the beginning, you come from a different, your background comes from working more in the real estate biz. You're really able to connect with them.
You had some really good ideas for staying connected with them. That's a really good one. I got to take it. I got to take that one. Go around and build up the neighborhood stock that can be used over and over. Yeah.
Rob Moroto
Exactly. If you actually see a place where there's like a restaurant, where there's a lineup of people waiting to get the takeout stuff, that might not be a bad shot either. Just grab those.
If you have a shot of, say, like a restaurant where they're doing takeout and you have a whole line of people outside, that's not a bad shot to take.
Because if you think about it, once things get better, you could go to the restaurant owner and say, "Hey, you want it? Here's a photo of how popular your place was during the crisis. This would be a great one for you to have in your social media feed. Here you go."
Ron Pepper
If you get a good shot with a good crowd. Yeah.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. The thing is, you just give it to them because, once you give them the photos, and you start walking way, they'll say, "Hey, do you do other types of photography?"
You got a client just through good will. Let's face it.
Ron Pepper
I think once you sell it to them, now you're committed to getting releases from all the people in the crowd. Pretty short.
It's good for market, for advertising.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. There's nothing better. There's no better introduction then than something that's free. A lot of guys know this. Why would you go?
Remember when you were dating, what was the first thing that you did? You went up to someone and say, "Hey, can I buy your beer?" Giving something away for free is the easiest way to introduce yourself.
The more that I'm in business, the more that I realize that business is much like high school, where the popular guys get everything. It's true. You go out, you shmooze, you know people, you get them to like you, and then all of a sudden you got more business.
So, during this whole Covid thing, we've been doing it where I made it a commitment to call two people a day just to check up on how they're doing, whether it's clients or friends or just people I haven't talked to in a while.
By doing that, I'm amazed at how many people are like, "Oh, yeah. Thanks for reaching out. Are you guys still doing your photos? You know what? I've got a listing that I don't know if I should put up. Really, you think we should put it up now? Great.
Well, have one of your guys come over." And that conversation happens a lot. So, if you are the guy that knows how to be good at keeping in touch with people, you'll do fantastic.
Jeff Lutz
Right.
Rob Moroto
And just remember, it's people.
Ron Pepper
Rob, and up there, do you compete with bigger, mid-sized companies or very many individual photographers out there?
Rob Moroto
There's around four or five companies like mine now. It's funny. Okay. So, I would say that there's three main, big companies out there, mine, and then there's two others. And we all know each other. We've all started this out pretty much around the same time.
One guy started from more of a video background and wanted to do videos for realtors. I started off doing mostly twilight photography back then. And then this other guy, he started out wanting to do daytime photography.
Had we all gotten together back then we would have a really big company by now, but instead we all just get on going our own way. Then we all just got to the point where we all do exactly the same thing, it's just we have three companies that are doing it.
Ron Pepper
Always compete. Always compete. Everybody gets better.
Rob Moroto
It really does. We're all different in terms of how we approach things and how we approach our clients and how we approach business and life and staffing and all that. So, there's enough room for everybody. There really is.
Even the small guys that are coming out now, I've seen some guys that have some wicked, wicked stuff. But at the same time, I don't know if they have the business sense to keep it running or they might be missing out on the pricing side.
There's one guy out there that's, I hate to say it, his work is just absolutely phenomenal, and he's charging $90 for it. What's going to happen, he's just going to burn out. He won't be able to keep the quality up.
Even if he does keeps the quality up, he'll never be able to grow because at that level of quality, he can't teach somebody else to do it, pay them even less than what he's making, and keep his business running. There's certain limitations and certain things that you got to do to keep the lights on and keep running.
Ron Pepper
There's a comment. Christine says, "How do you price your real estate jobs?" She says, "I live in a rural area in the Ottawa Valley."
Ron Pepper
Pricing. It's always just a really great conversation. There are tools and there's science behind it. Let's find out what Rob does.
Rob Moroto
The way that I look at it as this. Retail's easy. Okay? Retail is you have a product and then you do your markup. Okay. So, pretty simple in that sense. With what we are doing, we are taking our time, and we have to put a markup based on our time.
One of the things that happens is people tend to undervalue themselves a lot. We end up shooting and giving it away for less than minimum wage.
So, what I always look at is, let's take an idea. Okay, so how much is your time worth? If you say, "My time is worth $50 an hour." Okay, so $50 an hour.
If I was to work at a regular job, that'd be 100 grand a year. Great, but you're not working 40 hours a week, 50 hours and 50 weeks a year. You are going to be working probably around a third of that.
The rest of the time you're going to be going out getting business and stuff like that. If you look at it that way, you have to take that time and then increase it to adjust for the amount of time that you're doing other things like getting the marketing done.
So, if you upped that to around $60, $70, whatever it is that it makes and feels fair to you, stick with that.
Then you say, "Well, how long does it take me to drive out to a shoot?" Average is half an hour to get through a shoot. I'll spend an hour out of shoot and then half an hour back and then half an hour processing. So, there's two and a half hours. Two and a half hours at $70 an hour, you're looking at a hundred and what?
Ron Pepper
$175?
Rob Moroto
Right there, you've got the price. Now, $175, that is what you should be making.
Now here's the thing. People don't always want to pay 100% all the time. So, it's easier to negotiate down than it is. What I would suggest is start higher. You start at $220, $225, and then say, "Hey, you know what. We're starting this out. I'll give you 25% off."
What you're doing is, yes, you are giving that discount, but you're also keeping within the hourly where you're still valuing yourself and you're valuing your time.
Ron Pepper
I just want to add to the side to that, that when you're doing this kind of business, there are so many things that you're doing. Not only that you have done because certain amount of expertise comes into this, but I guess that goes for any job.
But there's lot of them still running your business that is not something you would be directly charging your clients for. Everything from your accounting to your storage and your backing up.
Rob Moroto
... Cleaning your gear, and the amortization of your gear. All of that.
Ron Pepper
What about just buying the gear? Right? So, when you start quoting things like that and people look at it just as per hour, I think it's something you got to consider that there's more involved with it.
Rob Moroto
Oh, of course. Yeah.
Ron Pepper
So, find out what you're comfortable with and happy with and fair, of course, to base on per hour.
Then also, when I quote things, especially when they're bigger and they're not just like one house, kind of a bigger job that may even take days, I base it on day rates. It has all that just figured in, and what I've come to find to be fair and very valuable for the client as well. That balances where the tough part comes in.
Jeff Lutz
Would you lower?
Ron Pepper
Not only to figure it out and know, but also that people don't really realize that. All they think of is, "You don't have to pay for film." That's really all we get.To this day.
Rob Moroto
Oh, yeah.
Jeff Lutz
Would you lower your hourly rate to break into the market? Would you do that?
Rob Moroto
Okay. So, yes. You can always give a discount.
Imagine this. You go up to somebody to say, "Okay. Yeah, that was $150. You've done 10 shoots with me now? Okay. Now I'm going to increase it to $175."
That's not going to fly.
Ron Pepper
There's one of these old marketing adage is that I always believed in is that if you gain a customer by discounting, you'll never bring them up. You'll never bring it up. The value is established for them, something internal, and it's never going to work to do that.
The only times I've ever really been really discount-oriented is somebody that's such a regular customer. Several years ago when I was doing more real estate, I had a couple of regular customers that would call me up one day and say, "Can you come over tomorrow?" And if I could, I could.
Sometimes I'd be like, "Okay, I have my kid with me." So they'd send someone along. We'd do it as a team. But I'd usually show up at the location, and they'd be there to meet me with a check.
They knew what they were going to get. I knew what they wanted, so over time we just made a price. That was great because it worked that way because there was no setup. Getting established with a client is costly in your time and everything for both of you.
Rob Moroto
I thought relationships were tough.
Ron Pepper
Learning what they want, learning how deliveries work, and are you going to get paid in a reasonable time? When none of that is mysterious anymore, those are the times that I have decided to handle it that way. To keep that customer because they do like what I'm doing.
But other people are saying that they'll do it for less. We had to find arrangements.
Jeff Lutz
So you would discount then as opposed to at the beginning or anything like that.
Ron Pepper
Yeah. I'm really anti-discount in general.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. No, exactly. Imagine this. Let's take a comparison. Take a look at things that are a value to people right now. So, look at a TV. Would you ever buy a TV full price?
Jeff Lutz
No, of course not. No.
Rob Moroto
Why? Because they're always discounted.
Jeff Lutz
Right. You can always find it cheaper somewhere else, right?
Rob Moroto
Yeah. But if you're getting an iPhone or a Mac, those things are almost never on sale.
Jeff Lutz
Right.
Rob Moroto
So, people are happy to pay full price for them. If you look at it that way and say, "Okay. If something never goes on sale, then it has more value."
And people will see the value, appreciate the value, and there's a certain psychological thing that happens where people look at it and say, "Yeah, I paid full price for this, but why did I pay full price for it? Well, because it's better."
And that's not a bad place to be where people think, "Oh, I paid more for these guys because they're better."
Be that person, and you'll do a whole lot better. You'll have better clients, too. You'll have people who appreciate what you do and the work that you do rather than the people who are nickel and diming, because those are the people that are going to complain about every single shot to try and get another discount from you.
Ron Pepper
I'm bringing in Mark Morrow. Hey, Mark.
Mark Morrow
Hey, Ron. Enjoying the conversation. I was listening in the car.
Ron Pepper
So, Mark, what's going on, man?
Mark Morrow
The place where I worked or in my day job, they're already talking about going back to work full time, and I'm not going. So, I'll have to figure out something else. Went back into photography full time, I guess.
It's been fun listening to you guys talk about real estate photography though. I appreciate your insights, and how you price a job is very similar actually to the way I price a job. That's nice to know. I had no idea.
Rob Moroto
I know a bunch of guys out there that are looking to go online. They find out what their competitors are doing, and then they try and undercut it.
Unfortunately, if you have a model like that, there's always going to be somebody's that's going to undercut you. You're just going to sink. It's a slippery slope, and it's fast.
Ron Pepper
Can I just say out loud for whoever sees this? If that's how you price it, if you look at everybody else's prices and they say take off 10% or something, come on. What would you guys think about...
Because I was saying I'm anti-discount, which is true. Not that I don't do it, but my background comes from hospitality industry. There was always this discount and that one, when they were acceptable. What is it about? Some things can be yield managed.
Airlines and hotels, they yield manage for the price based on the business levels and everything. Other things that's just not allowed somehow, and that's just something we accept for some reason.
So, I guess what I'm getting to is instead of offering discounts to get new business, what about if you're going to discount, just discount it 100% for the first one. First one's free or whatever, and see if they like it. If it's worth it to you, if you're getting started, and you have the time...
For me when I was getting started, I would spend so much time processing those jobs to try to figure out my way. Well, first of all, I have stuff to learn.
Ron Pepper
Focus on white balance guys, if you're getting started. Focus on white balance when you start out with real estate photography. It's one of the difficult things that you have to deal with.
If somebody asks, then I'll go into it more, but otherwise I'll just go right by it.
Mark Morrow
How do you do white balance, Ron? How do you do it?
Ron Pepper
Saying one of us. Let's see. It's always changing, but I typically shoot auto, but I capture raw so I can change it. So, if I don't like what the camera did then I can just grab a hold of it myself and make the adjustments.
So, I'd grab a bracket. Well, first of all, white balance is not difficult when it's outside. So, if you're doing exterior, unless there's unusual conditions, just it's fine. You can just use auto or choose sunlight.
Rob Moroto
Choose daytime. Yeah.
Ron Pepper
Yeah. Dusk, maybe we can talk about later. Let's say you have an interior with the sun coming in significant amount, and you have manmade lights on... I guess, in this instance, I turned them off.
If you have the manmade lights on, then it's going to mix the sources of light, the kinds of light sources. So, you can't really choose. You have to choose one or the other mode. You know what? Let me...
Mark Morrow
I'm curious to see how you do this, man, because I've been making just one of each, one of whatever I need and just mask it in wherever I need it, you know? So, I'm curious to see what you do here.
Ron Pepper
Well, one of each in which area?
Mark Morrow
I would white balance one for the incandescent and then white balance the other for the outside, like the daylight probably or try that at least and then mask them in manually. Make one in Photomatix one way, make the other one the other way, and then bring them together on individual layers and just mask in the one where I need it.
If I have more of one than the other, then I'll obviously go with that one over the other one. But I'm curious to see though if there's something more subtle or simple that I'm overlooking here. I'm curious.
Ron Pepper
The normal way is I would choose the one that has the most influence. So, in a room like this one where there's a lot of windows, but most of the lights coming in from outside where I think it's probably just that ceiling light on. I don't know if there's any other ones.
Okay. So I've got this room with a lot of light on one side. This is a difficult spot for a real estate photographer, right? We've all seen that kind of thing. Right?
So, when there's a lot of light coming in from outside, then you want to use a white balance. You could just use the preset of daylight but you need to choose a right white balance for daylight. There's at least the one ceiling light on in this one. Let's turn that off.
So, what I want it to do here is select all of the ones from this particular room. I could select all of them from the entire shoot would be the same thing in this case and just go over and use the powers of Adobe and change this from, it would have been as shot before, and just change it to auto.
I found that Lightroom, it won't sync the exact white balance. It'll choose a different one for each one. So this one's at 5,000. This one's at 7,000.
So, it chooses a different white balance for each image. Then when I combine the images, I get pretty close the right colors. Then I can do very quick editing on anyone that there's a color cast of a little bit of blue coming in from the outside light, for instance.
And I can just do a quick, I just call it a paint job. Just do a really quick brush tool, either in the Photomatix step or in Lightroom step. I could run it even though again, like computers being taxed pretty hard. I'm not sure if it'll take really, really long time. So, I can...
Rob Moroto
Now, Mark, I just want to chime in here. If you're doing that where you're taking two shots or two variations and then you're masking one over the other and all that stuff, here's a really simple way that we used to do a long time ago, especially if you have a bright room.
Take this image and HDR twice. Do it once with the lights on. Do it once with the lights off. Then put them over each other, and take the one that has the lights off. You make that a color layer. As soon as you do that, all your colors are fine because it's only one light source.
Mark Morrow
Interesting.
Rob Moroto
The other one, because it has the lights on, it shows the luminosity of everything. Now you can actually see how the lighting would work, and you get the natural light. There's a little bit of a pain in the ass to do everything twice.
Mark Morrow
No, I hear you. It makes sense, though. I'll try that just for fun. That's interesting. I've never thought trying to do one without the lights and one with the lights. I automatically just turn the lights on.
Ron Pepper
I think there's one of those many answers to the question about lights on or off is find out which one works better in different situations. The one I had on before had a big skylight.
So, really you didn't even need the lights on inside. I think that's probably why they were off. But there is something visually positive to have the lights on. I think there's something that if the lamps are not on, it looks kind of odd to us.
Just like in a landscape shot, if your horizon is off just by a little bit, you don't really know why you don't like the picture, but it doesn't look right to you. I think that's the same kind of thing with lamps being on.
I like to keep them on, but sometimes it's just worth it to have them off because I've been fighting the different color temperatures all attacking my camera at once. I've been fighting that for years and years and sometimes it's better to turn them off.
Rob Moroto
We just did a big shoot where we had to do it a time lapse of a construction reno. When we're doing that, we looked at it and thought, "Okay, well we don't want to color correct every single one of these." So, we went around, and we actually changed out all the bulbs in the entire place to daytime LEDs.
We got the brightest daytime LEDs that we could find so that we're almost overpowering the sunlight coming from the windows and set everything from there. The nice thing is for that one we used a Fuji X-T2, which has a iOS-less sensor, which essentially means that it's a fantastic camera.
Let's say you shoot at an ISO of 800, and you look in the back of the camera and it's black or completely white. In Lightroom it's kept all the information in there.
So, you can just pull it right back down and see all the data in it. It's fantastic. It has a huge dynamic range and fantastic. So, we did that and it was great. Just white bulbs all around, matched them all. Then we did the time laps, and came out great.
Ron Pepper
I just combined that bedroom that I was showing you before, and it doesn't have too much color cast. I would just say, there's some kind of blue cast on the floor. There's some wood flooring. That light looks really yellow to me, but that's about it. And frankly, for real estate photos, depending how much you're charging, I might not worry about that.
Mark Morrow
Any client I've ever had would be thrilled with that.
Jeff Lutz
That's a nice photo.
Mark Morrow
For most MLS needs.
Ron Pepper
Yeah, for MLS. But there are a couple of options you can do. Right at this step, there's a brush that we can play with to change the temperature. So, I could just make the brush bigger and I can just brush it out. Oops, I missed a spot, but just brush it out right there.
I could also just go ahead and take this. Let's say I am going to work on it some more. Let's say this is 90% done. I could do the rest of that 10% here or in Lightroom and paint out those. I'm going to finish it here so that I can finish that little workflow I was playing with recently.
I had somebody from the Photomatix support that was asking you about this exact question. His shots, they had a lot of different colors of paint and everything in the room. It was a really tough one.
So, I asked him to send them to me, and I was using those to experiment. So, I was playing around with a little bit different workflow.
Mark Morrow
That's nice, man. That was a good result. Good example.
Ron Pepper
Now that it's back here, and I haven't done this with this image before. But what if I just go auto white balance here again? And went a little too much green for me.
Rob Moroto
Now, Ron, I've been teaching a bunch of courses up in Calgary about real estate photography. When we get into images like this, the tricks that we say are, do something once and make it a preset.
Because every time you create something like that, then all you have to do would be grab all the images, add one preset, and it applies it to everything which saves you a whole ton of time.
The one that we do for the orange lights here is we just go into the HSL sliders, the hue, saturation, and luminance sliders, and we think about what light is.
So, with the light, why is it orange? It's orange because it's an incandescent light that's burning. Okay. So if we know that it's going to be orange, if it's burning that means it's going to be brighter. What Photomatix designs is it actually just made it darker.
So, if we want to get rid of the color cast from something that's orange, why not just make it brighter again? So, in the HSL, we actually don't take down the saturation, but instead we turn it around and we increase the luminances of the yellows and oranges.
And what we find when we do that, you all of a sudden brighten up the room where the lights are plus that color slowly starts going away.
Mark Morrow
You opening up a HSL layer in Photoshop and I'll make these, I'll batch all these through, and then they'll all have the same problem. So I'll bring them all through and then just do the same. That's the simplest fix for an orange light that I've found.
And sometimes I don't want it to affect everything else. I want the richness in the floor. I want the richness in this or that. So you just only want it in the light source.
And so I'll use gradient fades away from the center of that light fixture just to make it not so obvious or whatever, but either way, either adjustment that you've made with this, Ron looks good. That looks nice and natural and even and clean.
Ron Pepper
Yeah, I still did after Rob's, I don't want to call it a trick, after Rob's move, after his aikido. I went to saturation and I still brought it down a little bit. And I like it, especially for this one, because then it also had a nice impact on the ceiling I thought.
Mark Morrow
Yeah, yep, it did. Yeah, that's a nice even light. And frankly the light is a little yellow, so I try to keep it real now instead of trying to really fade it out, like I used to try to take it.
I'll drag that lum slider all the way up. And you know, I don't do that so much anymore. Most of the way, but not all the way anymore. Too, one of the key things that.
Mark Morrow
Jeff, one thing about someone just getting started in real estate photography, the people that I talk to, the things I tell them, when they asked me, "What does it take to get involved with it?"
The number one thing is really, there's just a few things to keep in mind. And mostly they have to do with shooting and how you shoot it. You want obviously your images to be better than theirs.
And in most cases, what I find, the single thing that a person needs to do in real estate photography to set their work apart immediately, is to shoot it straight. If you shoot it straight, you will immediately separate your work from 95% of the people in the magazines, in your demographic.
I live in Roanoke, Virginia, which is a small town nestled in the mountains here in Southwestern, Virginia. We're about three hours South of Richmond. That's the largest populace probably we have. Northern Virginia up in D.C. obviously is extremely populated. A lot of competition up there in those regions and down here, I have a few companies, such as Rob's, that really run the market.
They have a great product. They have great established relationships for a long time with the realtors. I've come to appreciate myself, how much each realtor, not each realtor, but most good realtors really have on them.
They have dozens at any given time of properties that they're invested in that they're either paying landscapers, they're paying painters, they're paying people out of their own pockets. They have a lot invested. They get paid, but they have a lot invested. I've come to appreciate that about real estate agents.
They don't get paid until somebody buys the house and sometimes that can be awhile. And sometimes they have, again, dozens of these things on their hands that they themselves are personally vested in to see that it sells and they just really hope that it does.
And so a for a real estate photographer to come in and fleece them, for lack of a better terms, is something that they're sensitive to, the least in my market.
Rob Moroto
Oh yeah, it's true.
Mark Morrow
Yeah, the cat's out on that. They're sensitive to it. If you do really good work. Now I have friends that have said Mark, they were about to buy a house, they're a new family buying a home, first home.
The first house had excellent photos. We went in, the house didn't look anything really like the photos. Second house was junky photos. I mean, crooked, everything was just like, what is that? A picture of a countertop.
Went in the place beautiful, like this was our home. This was the home we were going to buy. It didn't look anything like the photos. So the photos can be deceiving in that way. They can be too good, if you know what I mean.
Jeff Lutz
Right.
Mark Morrow
They don't necessarily sell the property. And that's what a realtor is looking at. I mean, at least in the MLS level, not the high-end people who are trying to look for Twilight shots and really creative stuff and unique angles, they have the money to spend for this stuff.
Most realtors do not want to do that. It's very blue collar work. They would love to go in, they try all the time and they succeed nowadays with the AI features available in phones, I guess. I mean, they're able to actually shoot their own photographs somehow.
So I don't know, you know? It's become very difficult. For me, I stopped working with realtors in general. I just got it off of my plan in general.
Because I ended up spending way more time because I take really good value in my post-processing and in my work. But real estate photography doesn't want that. It doesn't want an artistic point of view.
If you can bring that to it and you can do it efficiently and effectively and charge the right price and everybody's comfortable with all of this, and you can strike the right medium, then power to you.
Ron Pepper
It's really important to do.
Mark Morrow
I mean, I over-process, I spend way too much time, over commit. I spend three hours at the job site, Rob, when I know I'm supposed to spend 45.
Rob Moroto
Yeah.
Mark Morrow
I'm not supposed to spend three hours at this place, but I get carried away. I don't even know how much time has gone by. I just look around and think, "Man, I probably should get of here." I mean, I've probably been here too long and you know, but I have 450 images, most of them batches, you know?
So, it's only one. There's only like a fraction of that many that I'm actually going to use. You know the deal, but - So, I'm that guy. And then I'll under price it. And I couldn't stay in business. I couldn't hang with the people that understand the business of this.
That's the key. But if you, yourself, Jeff, if you know a realtor or you can know a realtor.
You are a teacher. You have access to realtors. If you could just get one of them, if you can prove to yourself that you can shoot us a scene straight, what I'm saying is that an average residence, you have what, an eight foot ceiling?
Jeff Lutz
Right.
Mark Morrow
10 feet? Something like that? The first thing that becomes automatic when you walk into a room is to locate the vertical midpoint. That's the enemy of most photographers. They don't think about the vertical midpoint and they're shooting below it or above it and they have warping and they have issues.
Jeff Lutz
You're talking about realtors, right? Who are shooting their own?
Mark Morrow
I'm talking about... Yes. If they're shooting their own, they get in the corner. It's corner shot central.
I mean, they can shoot corners. That's all they do. They shoot corners.
Ron Pepper
From a high level tilted down and everything looks...
Mark Morrow
Yes. Get to a wall, Jeff.
In the scene and you will be immediately better than what you're seeing. If you can get to a wall, you don't have to, sometimes you can't. And if we're talking about like a small bathroom, that's like a half bath or something downstairs in a house, forget it.
I mean, take a picture of something and get out of there. But you don't even need it in the end. I mean, I haven't.
I did at first. I would cram all that stuff in there not knowing if I needed it or not, but I began to realize that the realtors themselves are like, "No, don't worry about that. Just give me the key stuff and anything that's square footage related."
Rob Moroto
Mark, I think you hit it right there.
Mark Morrow
Thank you.
Rob Moroto
We would say get the key stuff. The thing that we found, the biggest thing to the growth of our company, was the standardization of what our product was. And what I mean by that is, let's get a standardized shot list for every house. So you look at it and say, "Okay."
"Let's look at a kitchen." A kitchen can be shot. So any square space can be shot from the centers and then shot straight on. It can be shot from four corners. So you got other, four straight ons or four corners that you can shoot from.
And then we also have this one where we call it a "one third shot." So if you have a place that you can divide it up and say, "Okay, so one third of the way in from the corner."
And the reason the one third of the way you from the corner works is because people put a lot of stuff in the corners, whether it's a plant or a coat hanger or lamp. Things are always in the corner.
So we come in one third of the way from each corner. And that means now you've got eight spaces, eight places in a room that you can shoot. Once you know that, you all automatically see that you have 16 options to shoot in any space.
If you have that, then you got to look at how realtors and people look at photos online. They're on their phones and they're doing this. They're going to flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip.
Imagine music. Music has a rhythm. You have this sort of same kind of rhythm. Then you have the chorus. Then you come back and it's repetitive. And as humans, we're very used to that.
So when we're doing that with photos, if you have it as like straight on, straight on, straight on, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, all of a sudden, those straight ones don't feel like they match the rest of it.
But if you had like, straight on, straight on, corner, corner, corner, straight on, corner, corner, straight on, corner, corner, then you have that kind of rhythm.
And once you can create that kind of rhythm and create that kind of package, whenever somebody looks at it and flips through it, it feels natural. It feels normal. And that makes the entire package worth so much more.
So if you have 25 photos, maybe it is. It's a straight on, corner, corner detail, straight on, corner, corner detail, straight on, corner, corner detail. And you do that and standardize it and your package looks better. So everyone recognizes what they're going to get.
And, if you started growing your company like I have, it's easier to talk to your staff and say, "Here's the shot list. We need eight shots in the kitchen, four shots in the living room, three shots in the dining room, four shots for the master, two shots for the master on suite, one shot for every other bathroom, two shots for every other bedroom."
They've got it. They know it. And if they miss something, I'd say, you missed this.
Mark Morrow
If the client asks for it, then I'll do it. I have a DJI Osmo 4k steady cam. I have the Z-axis thing on it that takes out the... I've learned to use that thing pretty well. I use it all the time.
It's a serious workhorse. I mean outside of real estate photography, I mean, music videos, anything, documentaries, short, any little pieces, that require... It's a killer little piece.
I don't even know if they make them anymore to tell you the truth, but yeah, I do. If they require it, I will and would. People still call me, I still have a handful of realtors that like to work with me and so I'll work with them.
And if they call all the time, but I don't aggressively pursue that anymore. But there is a viable market there, if you can locate that right price point and the realtors that I worked with seem to love that $150 price point for MLS work.
And they'll call you back for another one and another one, another one. I mean, that price point will keep you busy, but I'm talking about just normal homes, you know, normal ranch homes. There's nothing to them. There's no real light to deal with. Like Ron just showed us the example.
Ron has a prolific amount of work and panoramic and HDR photography. I mean, you've shot a lot of interesting structures I'm sure where you live. We don't have a ton of that kind of stuff where I am. We have a lot of country homes and things like this that you can imagine, but it's very rural.
Rob Moroto
You know, this is a great question from Christine here. Do the photos that are processed have to be licensed? Okay. So good question.
Mark Morrow
No, not for me, but yeah.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. So, okay, in the States and Canada, photography is considered a creative work, just like music, like anything that's written, anything like a painting. It is considered a creative work.
So you actually own the intellectual property of it. You have the copyright for it and you can yes, from there, license it out. And that's just based on how the copyright laws work right now. If you want to give ownership of it, you have the right to do that as well.
You can sell ownership of it. We sell the license to it, simply because for the most part, we want to hold onto the licenses of our work.
Mark Morrow
Yeah. It's a matter of verbiage perhaps at that point, however you want to phrase that with them. But I don't want them to feel like that they have to purchase that image from me again.
Rob Moroto
No, and that's...
Mark Morrow
You know.
Rob Moroto
And we always say, we can always stipulate that into the license and say, "Yeah, you have a 99 years unlimited, non-transferable to be able to use this for any marketing purposes that you have for..."
Mark Morrow
Yeah. Other kinds of work, yes, but for MLS real estate work, no. But for other high end things that are for advertising purposes, obviously that's a different ball game entirely.
But for this kind of thing, for MLS real estate work, which is a very practical, realistic entry into the photography community, into the photography world, if a person wants to, has interest in photography or videography now, because obviously, to Christine's question, video has become a very necessary evil in the world of real estate photography.
And so, the nicer the property, the higher the demand for those types of services indeed. And I've done, I've done a handful of those myself and some aerial work as well. But again, that's standard fare now in most real estate situations.
So if you find yourself, if you find that service required of you, those types of the tools required to provide a high level product are becoming more readily available to the average prosumer and entry-level real estate photographer.
So, there are real tools now to make a lot of really excellent... The key really is telling the story of the home. What tells the story of the home? To me that's how I look at it now.
I used to look at it in terms of f-stop and shutter speed. But now I look at it as, what tells the story? Anytime I pick up a camera now, that's the question. What the story? Because I'm wasting my time if I don't tell the story.
Rob Moroto
Of course, and you know what, I think when you talk about the stories, that's something that we do definitely want when it comes down to the bigger projects where we actually are being paid for the... How do I put this?
I don't want to sound like an ass saying this, but where we're actually paid for the time that it takes to actually do the job right. Rather than getting the piecemeal, "Hey, I just want real estate photos," which, I think for us, what we've done is we've packaged it out.
We've standardized it to the point where it's almost like working in a factory where we can produce great looking photos consistently over and over and over again. And I can send one guy or I could send another guy, or I can send any of my staff out to do these and they'll always come out looking the same.
And I like the fact that we can do that for the realtors there.
But when it comes down to, of course, for the bigger projects where it's like, we're shooting show homes or community shots for a new area development, that's when you definitely have to look at it and say, "Well, what's the story? Who are we targeting? What's the message that's going to really connect with them?"
Mark Morrow
Absolutely.
Rob Moroto
Actually getting back to video, have you guys started playing around with video with the new iPhone?
Mark Morrow
You know, not... I'm picking up all kinds of B roll. I don't know what I'm going to use this stuff for, but I am stacking up my photos with video clips of all kinds of things from golf to water puddles, to whatever it may be, but it's making a lot.
Rob Moroto
So we got - where we got this, the DJI Osmo Mobile. And this phone, put them together...
Mark Morrow
Perfect.
Rob Moroto
And Oh my God, I go onto our website. We've got some sample videos of videos that we've done for realtors and builder spec homes using that set up.
Mark Morrow
Yeah., I could see that.
Rob Moroto
It's ridiculous. We can shoot a place in around 20 minutes, processing it in around 40 and we can process it all on an iPhone. And so what we've been doing is we've been doing these iPhone videos, but at the same time we've been telling our realtor clients like, "Hey, we can actually teach you how to do this because..."
Here's the thing with social media right now, everybody's on social media and everybody's getting more and more involved on it, but realtors and actually most businesses can't afford to keep up the amount of content and volume that is necessary to keep a professional looking social media site like the big companies.
And so the only way that you can compete is to be able to shoot your own stuff. And so we've started doing this where we're trying to teach people, "Hey, this is how you shoot video using your iPhone and a small gimbal.
And when you can't do it, we'll come and shoot it for you," kind of thing and it's working out really well.
Ron Pepper
Hey, there was a comment that I thought we could bring it back to a pricing discussion that I think is important. Wade is mentioning that he was waiting a while to get paid.
And I think that's one of the things with real estate photography, with all the pros and cons with every kind of business you could ever find there's pros and cons, and so one of the cons is that it's not the highest paying kind of work. And I frankly expect to get paid immediately.
Rob Moroto
You know what, there's... I agree. Get paid right up front if you can.
Ron Pepper
And I expect that for like existing clients, maybe again, that's part of what we were saying before is that you're getting to know each other and maybe they have their process. Okay, fine.
But if you say, "Look going forward, here's what we need to do." So just like another two cents.
Rob Moroto
Yeah, no, we do the same thing where we've got an online booking platform where whenever somebody new books online, they submit their credit card and it's preauthorized so that at the end... Like we still do once a month billing at the end of the month, but we've got the credit card on file, so as soon as it's done, we press a button and boom, they're charged.
So they don't exactly pay upfront, but they give you the information and you can charge it.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. We do have a couple of clients that are more net 30 net 60, but those are clients where they're doing 12 to 20 listings a month, so we give them a little slack on that. And I think that's perfectly understandable.
They've got a bigger accounting process than the average realtor does. And of course, there's always the case by case.
And during these times with Covid, we've had realtors come to us and they're like, "Okay, I've got six new listings, but I can't pay you until like June. Is that okay?" And I look at them and think, "Yeah, you know what? We're here to help. Sure. That's fine."
And I talked to my staff, I'm like, "Look, this is what's happening with this client here. Let's see what we can do to just help them out because they're suffering." And you know what, it's when people are down, that's when you rise to the occasion and help out more.
Rob Moroto
My favorite lenses are not the ones that I use and here's why. The lenses that we use for real estate photography, we've got three of them and we have a Sigma 12-24, and that goes on to a full frame sensor.
So we need the 12 millimeter because when we shoot, say a powder room and we needed to shoot it not in portrait mode, but in landscape mode because everything on MLS is in landscape. We need that 12 mil to shoot that bathroom so you can still see everything top and bottom. Now, that is the widest that we go.
The next one that we have is a 16-35, which is our standard go-to lens for all of our properties. Then we have the 24-240 and that's on Canon. And that is on a Canon the R series, the Canon RP, which is a fantastic little mirrorless version of the Canon stuff and it's good.
But those are what we use for general real estate. Now, in terms of my favorite lenses, I still love shooting with Fuji. And my favorite lens to this day, right now is a Fuji 56 1.2 mil. and it's just a dreamy lens.
Ron Pepper
Yeah, that's a rare one that you're not going to see very often. Now, realistically, people are asking about lenses, Rob, they want to get into it. They're probably going to get one.
Rob Moroto
If you're going to get one, you're probably going to want to get the most affordable one. And if you're on a Canon system, I don't really know Nikon, so I can't talk about Nikon.
Ron Pepper
I'll take that next.
Rob Moroto
Okay. So on a Canon system, I would say right now, the best that you could probably get is get into something like a... You know what, I would say, get a used 5D Mark III, or a used 6D.
. And get the 17-40 mil. That's a great lens for all round. You can use that where you shoot inside, you can shoot outside and you can't go wrong with that. So, just those two.
Ron Pepper
And Canon also has that 10-20.
Rob Moroto
Yeah. The 10-20 on the crop sensors, so, jeez, I haven't looked at crop sensors for ages now.
Mark Morrow
I like the Sigma 10-20. That's a $420 lens, Sigma 10-20 F4. You don't need anything more open than F4 at that width. You're going to be on a tripod.
And I shoot Sony myself. I use the 16-35. That's my workhorse and I don't know if you could see that, but it is ultra beat up.
And then at a 28 mil, I'll use a 28 mil on a... That stays fixed on that camera. As long as you shoot it straight.
Rob Moroto
It'll look great.
Mark Morrow
That's an Nikon. That's a NIKKOR lens. So, it's fixed wide open. I don't have an adapter on here like a Metabones that gives me pass through connectivity with the electronics.
So, it's fixed wide open. So it's not really my real estate lens, but it's wide enough. And I always like to shoot a wide angle anyway.
Ron Pepper
Well, every, every system has a lens that's going to be... Unless you have only really big properties. I come from San Francisco where I was shooting a lot of condos, very small spaces.
But you need and want something wide. So 10, 12, 14, 14 is probably the longest. You need something in that area. And then you also need something up to 35 or so for exteriors maybe, but that's very general, right? So...
The thing to do is, especially if you're starting, so I've been doing this for a while. I have the Nikon Holy Trinity.
So I have all the focal lengths with very good quality lenses that I need. Same thing, I have an Olympus set up and everyone who has every kind of setup, they're going to have options of inexpensive lenses that are very much more than good enough.
Ron Pepper
Very good. So I think Mark brought up, you don't have to look for the F 2.8 or 1.2 lenses, get that F4 or more lens, because those are going to be a lot less expensive and you never need wide open apertures anyway.
Now those ones that have the wider apertures just tend to be the top glass. Yes.
Mark Morrow
Yeah, right, true.
Ron Pepper
That's fine. But with good post-processing, no one's ever going to know the difference.
Especially if I'm talking to MLS, so.
Mark Morrow
That's right. They won't notice.
Ron Pepper
Get a good kit lens that's wide, or maybe, especially if you can have one lens that you never have to change it, that's fantastic.
Just get one good lens and it can be on any system. Frankly, all the systems we mentioned are great and other ones as well, Panasonic.
There's no reason to stick with exactly one. So if you have an opportunity, like someone has lenses that you can use, a family member of friend, just go with that one and you'll be happy with any of them, believe me.
Mark Morrow
Absolutely.
Rob Moroto
Oh yeah. And the other thing is this, let's face it. You can shoot real estate with a 2.8. The thing is, as your f-stop... Well your aperture opens up. So you got a smaller, smaller aperture, so you've got a 1.8, 1.2 or something like that.
Rob Moroto
Thing is, more of the stuff in the background blurs. And I have clients who they say, "Well, we want it to look artsy like this one," and then you shoot it at say [F]5.6.
And you get a little bit of the background blurry. They'll be like, "Oh, that's not a good picture. It's blurry back there." It's like, "Well, that's what you wanted"".
We say you shoot at F8 to around F13, somewhere in there, depending on what you need for the depth of field. But yeah. You never going to shoot anything that's less than that.
Mark Morrow
You know, when I started doing real estate photography, I had a friend hire me who was living elsewhere in another town. He had lived in this town and he had started a real estate photography business on the side.
He was charging $100 bucks a session or whatever. He said, "Hey, can you go shoot some properties for me?" He put a thing out, an ad out, and I responded to it.
I told him, "I'm an aspiring photographer. I take my work seriously." I was really into it. He said, "Okay, look, I'm going to send you the camera. "And just use the pop flash."
But he said, "We're not taking fixture images. We're not taking cut sheet images for fixtures and appliances. They're not selling the home really. So you don't need any of that stuff."
Again, we're talking about normal MLS here. So my first shoot I had a ton of shallow depth of field with my f/2 24 to 70. I would get a shallow depth of field of some fixture or something.
And he immediately said, "Yeah, we don't need any of that stuff." And, again, if you're going to use something like Photomatix on your images in the end...
I don't use Photomatix on images that... I might layer it in very subtly, but in a very selective location. But I'm going to try to keep my tone mapping out of my bokeh, my out-of-focus areas for the most part.
Rob Moroto
Christine's come up with a couple of great questions. First one she said was, "Do you charge extra for video?"
Yes. Always charge for your time. Your time is worth money. You are worth money. Don't ever give that away.
Ron Pepper
Do you do it kind of modularly? Like A and B, and then that's it?
Rob Moroto
Yeah. What we would do is we would look at it and say... We go off it as how do you calculate the time?
And so, for example, if we already know that our pricing structure is based on the half an hour of driving in, half an hour of driving out, and half an hour setting up, half an hour shooting, we already know that we're committed for an hour and a half there.
If we know that we're going to do a video and we say, "Okay, video is going to take half an hour to shoot," then we tack that on. We don't need to tack on the extra 30 minutes and 30 minutes for the drive time.
So we can give a discount based on the fact that we're not driving there, but it has to be communicated to the client that yes, it all has to be done in one shot or else I'm going to charge you for that drive time again.
And so that's how we would do it. So it's like, as an add on it's this.
So that's why the bundled packages can work so well where it's like if I do the virtual tour and the video and the photos, and it's all just one guy that's doing it, then here's the bundle package.
Mark Morrow
And then the next question that comes in to me is Mark. "What if we do like all of them in the same day?" And then you're like, ah, yeah.
Rob Moroto
But you have to do them all in the same day.
Ron Pepper
But that's your day rate.
Ron Pepper
Ok, I want you to go shoot four hotels in one day.
Mark Morrow
Yeah. A lot of these realtors that I've worked with in my town weren't familiar with the quality that was available to them on a regular... They aren't in tune with this kind of stuff like we might be or something as photographers.
I go in and sit down with them at the conference table and show them the possibilities. And I've even had them say, "Hey, can I just hire you? Can you just work for me?" I was like, "No, I would, thank you. I appreciate the sentiment but..."
Mark Morrow
And when it comes to pricing to answer that question just really quickly, I'm sorry to step on you is I really do try...
I don't know if it's just in my nature or what, but I really try to find out what they're comfortable with because a lot of this video stuff is new terrain to them and it just adds up to another investment they have to make for a property that they hope sells.
So will the video really help sell the product or is it just another piece of cash that they're throwing into the wind hoping that it'll help? So if I can genuinely...
And usually, like you said earlier, Rob, it's about relationships. If they get comfortable with you as a person, and they know that you're just going to take care of them, you're not going to mess with your price.
You're going to do whatever it takes to get them what they need on time and quickly. And I turn over as quickly as I possibly can.
Rob Moroto
So I was going to say with the video stuff and virtual tour stuff, you're absolutely right. You got to understand what the client is doing and what they're looking for.
But the other thing is this, sometimes it's not about will it sell the place? Sometimes it's more of a will it get the client? So if you've got a realtor, that's like, "I don't know if I should do video or if I should do a virtual tour."
Before Covid, I used to say that, "You know what? Virtual tours are not necessarily going to sell your place, but what it might do is it might secure the listing."
Nowadays, we say, "Yeah, you need a virtual tour because nobody's going to actually go into the homes right now." So it's a it's a different mindset. And you got to make sure that you communicate that to your clients.
And as well, with videos and virtual tours, we've been talking with a lot of our clients and saying, "Hey, you should or should not use video or virtual tours for this one because virtual tours are a great for a demographic that is younger, more tech savvy."
So, if I go up to a realtor and they're like, "Oh yeah, we're trying to sell this apartment style place in a senior's residence." Guess what? A virtual tour is not going to work unless you're catering to the kids that are buying it for their parents.
Ron Pepper
How are you defining virtual tour?
Rob Moroto
Oh, like a Matterport or an iGuide.
Ron Pepper
So, 360s in 3D, not a slideshow, right?
Rob Moroto
No, not a slideshow. Not a slideshow. This is an interactive 360 where you get to look all the way around on something.
Rob Moroto
But, the other thing is when you start looking at things like video, video actually works better for an older demographic because they can actually sit and watch. They'll take the time to look through it.
And as well, they're also very good at reading descriptions. So, based on who you're targeting to buy the place, you will start looking at it and saying, "Okay, what is the best medium to communicate the message to them?"
Ron Pepper
That's a great point.
Rob Moroto
And then Christine's last question was, "What is the contract cycle, how do you go through a contract with a client?"
Rob Moroto
And my recommendation is you do it once, depending on who it is, if it's a smaller client. So, if it's just one job for a realtor, tell them what your rates are, tell them when you're going to get there.
I don't think you really have to worry too much about getting a full on contract with them. And then what we do is we just write our terms actually onto the invoice, where it says, "By paying us, you agree to the following terms. You have a 99 year license to use these for this person and that purpose here," and then send it off that way.
When you get into a larger job... So for example, if you're shooting show homes for a builder, then yes. Get into a contract. Stipulate who owns what, what the timeframes are, what the deposits are, what the payment terms are and get all that in there.
Ron Pepper
Yep. Good points.
Mark Morrow
Definitely a difference.
Rob Moroto
So for any photographer out there, there's one piece of advice I've got for you.
When you're starting out, definitely look at other people's work and learn from it. Aim high. Learn from it.
Once you start getting into it, you have to curve yourself and you have to look at it and build up your confidence in your own work. You've got this thing where it's like you aspire to be somebody.
You've reached the pinnacle. Get happy with that, and then wait until you have the mental capacity to want to learn and aspire again.
Because one of the things that happens, I see this all the time with photographers, is they get to the point where they're aspiring to get to a place, they plateau a little bit, but they still see people that are doing a whole lot better than they are.
And then they start doing this where it's like, "I'm never going to be good enough. I'm never going to be able to do this. Why are my shots so terrible?"
And then they start going down and then they quit because they're discouraged from it. Don't do that. You know what, take some time.
It's like turning off the TV and not reading the news for a bit. It's actually healthy for you. Get rid of that. Get happy with what you've got. Try and get better based on what you've already done, and find the things that you don't like about your images and fix those.
And then when you get to the point where you're really comfortable and you have that self confidence, then start looking at other people's stuff again and say, "Oh, now I want to learn how to become more like this. I really like this. I think I can get to that".
And aspire to go there again, but not constantly. Or else you will burn out your self confidence.
Ron Pepper
There's areas that you'll go through where you're improving. And then there's a time where you're going to be coasting and maybe even helping others, which makes you better.
Ron Pepper
Maybe I'll make my comment. There's a lot of overly criticizing things. We touched on it during the show, during this hour and a half now. You're shooting for certain purposes in certain places that they're going to be delivered and presented in scene.
So, we're not always going for perfection. Other times we're going for perfection. So you have to know what you're shooting for.
So, if you're out there participating in groups, Facebook groups or whatever, and the criticism is coming in, keep in mind that they might have a different outcome for their images. They might have a different bar, a different kind of a client.
So, just be ready to say, "Well, okay, hold on. Let's slow down. And what I'm doing is for this purpose and they're doing this for this purpose."
So, I just want to throw that out there for everybody getting started, that people are going to come in and somebody is going to tell you that everything sucks. Somebody. Well, it depends on what you're doing.
But if your client likes it, that's what you're doing. So, you don't have to shoot for that person that's criticizing. You don't even have to necessarily shoot for yourself.
I think there's an argument for when you should shoot for yourself, but your client wants something, get it to them. So just be ready to keep it all in perspective.
Mark Morrow
Those are excellent points, Ron. And all I was going to say was just to piggyback on Rob's statement.
As Scott Bourne would say, "Be brutal." You have to be absolutely brutal with yourself. Don't fall in love with your babies. That kind of thing.
If you want to get into photography for a living, then it's all the client and what they want. You have to get vision for that, get eyes for that.
As Ron was trying to elude to, you can't even shoot for yourself in some situations. It's, "What do they want?" And getting it to them to the best of the ability. So, learning how to understand what that is.
The photography world is full of prima donnas. The comments sections - I don't even read them. If people put up negative comments on my stuff, I just delete it.
Go get your own show, go get your own venues, say what you want. But, anything that I try to do is to try to help other people, spread other people, share positive things, things that might be useful to others.
I know I went through a lot of pitfalls and I made a lot of mistakes when it came to photography, I was interested in photography. I wanted to get better as a photographer. And again, you do have to aim high. You have to be brutal with yourself.
You do eventually have to get over yourself in that way. And you never really do. You have to be comfortable with the fact that you might not enjoy it anymore. In some situations, it might actually be a job.
Ron Pepper
It's not always an easy life being a photographer. And you're going to have to choose the times that you stick to what you thought you were going to stick to. And other times, you're just producing something for a client.
Mark Morrow
Exactly.
Ron Pepper
In that business, that's what they want.
Mark Morrow
Right. It's one thing to be able to shoot, it's another thing to be able to face the business monster that's looking at you.
These guys up here have a better handle on that than I do. And I would deflect anything in their direction on that because they have excellent advice on that. And everything Rob has said here has been spot on. It's very realistic in terms of how to approach real estate photography as a business.
And what you need to be aware of as you move into it and to develop the thick skin that you need to be able to break through the initial sensitivities, for lack of better term of these things and get comfortable as a shooter, get comfortable as a business person, which is something I'm still acclimating to myself.
I've been trying to do photography as a business for probably 10 years or something. 15, 10 to 15 years, and going through ups and downs and having successes and not being the consistent thing that I want it to be all the time.
But again, keep aiming high in terms of the business part of it. That's the part that we really have to understand and to not burn out, it can be overwhelming. It really can.
And to actually enjoy what you do, which needs to come through. It takes a certain type of persona to really just deal with these things. So it's a learning process for all of us.
For myself, I'm still learning how to navigate the business aspects of photography, because I want to give my work away. I need to sell it and I want to give it away. And that's a problem, always has been.
And so I have a day job. At the moment I go through waves and of course I would love to follow my passion and for it to work. We have three teenagers in our home and the focus can't always be on my desires in this department.
Ron Pepper
Dad doesn't typically come first in that kind of situation.
Mark Morrow
So yeah. I've tried to put myself in the best... tried to invest for success. And I know it's not about the gear. My goal has been to try to use lesser gear than my competition and outperform.
It's not a contest and I'm not in competition with anyone. I'd rather be friends, and work together. But I'd be liars if we didn't say that we weren't feeling our way through this and getting better with every little thing we learn from all kinds of photographers and how they do what they do. It's just phenomenal. It's a great thing right now.
Ron Pepper
One of the best parts about the business for me was always just to be involved and learning from each other, like bringing up the shows that we both attended. I haven't been doing that over the last couple of years and I really miss it because...
Mark Morrow
Same here.
Ron Pepper
And just being able to call up so and so because they're the expert in something and asks some advice. It's an amazing thing. And then I give back in my particular area of expertise and I just really love that.